Waterboarding: It depends on what the meaning of "present" is
We now appear to know why Judge Mukasey has been so cagey about answering the question of whether waterboarding is torture or otherwise illegal: He fears that saying yes could open the door to criminal and/or civil liability for current and former Bush Administration officials who conducted or authorized waterboarding. But is that fear reasonable?
As the latest NY Times story notes, U.S. law now provides a good faith defense to charges of illegal interrogation. In particular, the Detainee Treatment Act provides in relevant part:
The fact that Judge Mukasey was unwilling to make a statement of that sort suggests that perhaps his concern is not solely with past waterboarding but also with future cases. Indeed, this is hardly mere speculation. Judge Mukasey, in answering one of the Senate's written questions, wrote:
Posted by Mike Dorf
As the latest NY Times story notes, U.S. law now provides a good faith defense to charges of illegal interrogation. In particular, the Detainee Treatment Act provides in relevant part:
In any civil action or criminal prosecution against an officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent of the United States Government who is a United States person, arising out of the officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent's engaging in specific operational practices, that involve detention and interrogation of aliens who the President or his designees have determined are believed to be engaged in or associated with international terrorist activity that poses a serious, continuing threat to the United States, its interests, or its allies, and that were officially authorized and determined to be lawful at the time that they were conducted, it shall be a defense that such officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent did not know that the practices were unlawful and a person of ordinary sense and understanding would not know the practices were unlawful. Good faith reliance on advice of counsel should be an important factor, among others, to consider in assessing whether a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known the practices to be unlawful.If Judge Mukasey were really just concerned about protecting personnel who engaged in past acts of waterboarding, he could say something like the following: I have not yet seen all of the relevant classified documents, but based on the publicly available accounts of what waterboarding consists in, I would conclude that it is illegal. At the very least it appears to be "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment" in violation of international and domestic law, even if it does not rise to the level of torture. However, U.S. personnel reading the "Bybee memo" and other official documents could have reasonably concluded that waterboarding was legal, and under the DTA, that conclusion could be sufficient to shield them from criminal or civil liability. In any event, I do not want to pre-judge the matter of what, if any, legal action should be pursued by the Justice Department until I have all the facts in hand, nor do I want to be understood to be giving an official interpretation that could be used in a proceeding in a foreign country exercising universal jurisdiction. I will say that based on my best current judgment, waterboarding is illegal now, and prospectively I would not give the Justice Department's approval to the practice.
The fact that Judge Mukasey was unwilling to make a statement of that sort suggests that perhaps his concern is not solely with past waterboarding but also with future cases. Indeed, this is hardly mere speculation. Judge Mukasey, in answering one of the Senate's written questions, wrote:
I would not want any uninformed statement of mine made during a confirmation process to present our own professional interrogators in the field, who must perform their duty under the most stressful conditions, or those charged with reviewing their conduct, with a perceived threat that any conduct of theirs, past or present, that was based on authorizations supported by the Department of Justice could place them in personal legal jeopardy.In referring to "past or present" instances of waterboarding, presumably Mukasey did not have in mind just those instances, if any, of waterboarding that were occurring at exactly the moment that he was writing out his answers. In other words, he pretty clearly meant that he didn't want U.S. personnel to worry about liability for past or future waterboarding. This sort of wordplay---using "present" to mean "future" but in a way that isn't at first obvious---almost makes me nostalgic for the purported memory lapses and bald-faced lies of Alberto Gonzales. Almost.
Posted by Mike Dorf
14 Comments:
At 7:58 AM,
Craig J. Albert said…
Don't "Judge" Me
Let's stop calling him "Judge" Mukasey, for Heaven's sake. He's not a judge, and trading on that honorific treads the ethical line, as expressed in the opinions of several states' ethics boards and an informal ABA opinion.
Mukasey's a private lawyer who gave up a pretty cushy lifetime federal appointment that I don't think I would ever retire from unless there were a really compelling reason. The only purpose in constantly referring to him as "Judge" is to convey the impression that he's somehow more impartial, more learned or has more oomph than other stiffs who bill by the hour. He's not any of those things, and the job he's looking for is a decidedly partisan job in which he represents the interests of the government in court and oversees its main law enforcement agency.
There are plenty of lawyers who try trade on the honorific, but that doesn't make it right. Call him "Mr.", because by framing the issue in terms of his proponents' language, you're already conceding him a big portion of the debate.
At 9:03 AM,
Howard Wasserman said…
Something has to give with the entire process of Senate confirmation, not only as to Judges but now as to executive-branch officers. Judicial nominees refuse to answer questions about their views of the law because it may implicate a case that theoretically will come before them in the future. Cabinet nominees refuse to answer questions about their views of law and policy because it may implicate situations they will have to deal with and they do not want to prejudice their future inquiries and analysis. Either Senators have to refuse to confirm nominees who do not answer questions or we just turn this into a rubber-stamp for whomever the President wants to appoint.
At 9:04 AM,
egarber said…
it shall be a defense that such officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent did not know that the practices were unlawful and a person of ordinary sense and understanding would not know the practices were unlawful.
I can see how this might be stickier than it first appears -- at least with regard to highly placed civilian leaders.
Assume for this excercise that *I* am a person of ordinary sense and understanding (clearly debatable, for sure :) ). In one sense the basic calculus would involve whether I think unitary executive power trumps acts of Congress. In other words, it seems to me that a reasonable observer would read 1) current war crimes laws passed by Congress and 2) Supreme Court rulings like Hamdan vs. Rumsfeld (respecting the Geneva conventions) as leaning heavily toward the conclusion that waterboarding is indeed illegal "on paper." So is a baked internal legal justification to circumvent those rules -- based on expansive Article II power and limitless presidential signing statements -- enough to create a "reasonable" presumption of legality?
Obviously, it's more likely that an interrogator in the field is acting reasonably if he / she merely takes the immediate advice of superiors. They're not in a position to know about this larger debate. But the game is different if we're talking about the Sec of Defense, vice president, or the president himself.
In fact, I should ask if the president is even covered under the language -- that such officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent. He probably is, I'm thinking.
I'm not arguing that protecting the president is a legitimate reason to be slippery; I'm merely suggesting that it might be what's happening.
At 12:42 PM,
Sobek said…
The Democrat Congress has specifically authorized waterboarding:
http://www.deanesmay.com/posts/1193857113.shtml
Granted, the link refers to waterboarding of U.S. soldiers, by U.S. personnel.
At 2:55 PM,
egarber said…
The Democrat Congress has specifically authorized waterboarding:
It's not a big leap of logic to see gigantic differences between resistance training and actual detainee treatment.
Waterboarding constitutes torture not because of the mere physical mechanics, but because the victim literally thinks he's being drowned. There is a clear mental component there -- the same as if I held an empty gun to a prisoner's head threatening to blow his head off. *I* know I won't do it -- but he certainly isn't sure.
Unless you're arguing that our soldiers literally fear for their lives during this training, in my view it's very inaccurate to label it "waterboarding" in the actual sense.
At 6:14 PM,
Sobek said…
"It's not a big leap of logic to see gigantic differences between resistance training and actual detainee treatment."
Yes it is. The point of waterboarding is to create a reflex response. You feel that regardless of whether you know the waterboarders are going to drown you. Either the reflex response is torture, or it is not. And if not, given that no one has accused the U.S. of actually drowning anyone, no detainee has been "tortured" by waterboarding any more than U.S. soldiers have been (with Congress' blessing).
Also interesting is that Senate Democrats are fighting the approval of Mukasey based on his refusal to call waterboarding torture, when even the Senate won't do so.
"Unless you're arguing that our soldiers literally fear for their lives during this training..."
Yes they do, because it's a reflex response. Makes no difference what they know about the situation.
At 8:15 PM,
egarber said…
Sobek,
I understand the point, but I think "torture" is defined in part by the actual circumstances and context. A soldier who volunteers to partake in aggressive resistance training is not in anything close to the same situation as an actual prisoner who knows nothing about his enemy's intent -- and who has no choice in the matter.
I think it would probably be considered "torture" or abuse generally under the Geneva rules if detainees were forced to say, run until they almost or actually vomited. But our soldiers go through something close to that in their training, right? Are those volunteer army cadets being "tortured", or are their human rights under the rules of war being violated? (I'm obviously not equating running with drowning, of course).
Further, I'd like more information about what kind of training is really happening. I've never heard my military friends talk about that kind of experience. So I'm somewhat skeptical of the claim.
At 2:04 AM,
Sobek said…
"A soldier who volunteers to partake in aggressive resistance training is not in anything close to the same situation as an actual prisoner who knows nothing about his enemy's intent -- and who has no choice in the matter."
Not the same exactly the same situation, no, but does that really matter? Pain is pain, right? We seem to agree that inflicting pain (or a reflexive panic reaction, as the case may be) can be morally justified in some cases. That being the case, it's not much of a stretch to allow waterboarding to get military intelligence to save our soldiers' lives.
"But our soldiers go through something close to that in their training, right?"
According to a scene in Band of Brothers, yes. And I don't have any personal experience, so I'll go with that.
"I think it would probably be considered 'torture' or abuse generally under the Geneva rules if detainees were forced to say, run until they almost or actually vomited."
I would disagree with you. And I say this as someone who really hates to run.
"Further, I'd like more information about what kind of training is really happening."
I don't know anything from personal experience either. But the conservative blogs I read are frequented by military folks, and they tell me some pretty messed up crap. Stuff like being sent into the wilderness with no clothes, told to evade their pursuers, and when they are (inevitably) caught, brutally beaten, starved, and otherwise mistreated. Ooh rah!
At 2:06 AM,
Sobek said…
"The only purpose in constantly referring to him as 'Judge' is to convey the impression that he's somehow more impartial..."
Please. Anyone here honestly think Antonin Scalia is impartial? Or Ruth Ginsburg? I think the impartiality ship sailed long ago.
At 8:22 AM,
egarber said…
That being the case, it's not much of a stretch to allow waterboarding to get military intelligence to save our soldiers' lives
Except that we were once the world's beacon for upholding the spirit and letter of the Geneva conventions. If we drop the bar and allow such abuse, we're failing in that mission. Therefore, for me, it comes down to the very different contexts at play in this comparison. Actual prisoner treatment is a completely separate legal ambit, complete with its own rules and framework.
I would disagree with you. And I say this as someone who really hates to run.
Common article 3 of the Geneva rules bans "cruel" treatment, and requires humane conditions. That appears to create room for my scenario. And btw, for the record, I ran 5 miles this morning :)
I guess the larger point I'm making is that the question isn't: "we inflict pain on our soldiers, so why shoudn't we do the same for those suspected of terrorist activity? Instead I think it's: "shouldn't we uphold the geneva conventions not only to lead the world, but also to guard against other states / actors inflicting that pain on our captured soldiers?"
Though I totally understand your logic, I think it conflates unrelated components.
At 1:19 PM,
Sobek said…
"Common article 3 of the Geneva rules bans 'cruel' treatment, and requires humane conditions."
A rule that doesn't state what it is banning is no rule at all. Is forced running "cruel"? Depends who you ask, I suppose. Everything about prison seems cruel to me, but it's obviously necessary and permissible. Is water-boarding inhumane? If it is, then it is regardless of who the victim is (again, because the panic is a reflex, so it makes no difference if the US soldier knows it's done by friendlies).
Is waterboarding torture? Well again, the Geneva Conventions aren't clear on that at all.
As I noted before, Congress could have made waterboarding illegal, and did not. The Dems control Congress, but will not. Apparently they understand the necessity of waterboarding in some cases. In 2004, Chuck Schumer said: "I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake. ...It is easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used, but when you are in the foxhole it is a very different deal. And I respect, I think we all respect the fact that the President is in the foxhole every day."
Note that he isn't even talking about waterboarding, he's talking about torture.
On September 26 of this year, Barak Obama said we cannot "have the president of the United States state as a matter of policy that there is a loophole or an exception where we would sanction torture." But then he gave himself a loophole, saying "there are going to be all sorts of hypotheticals, an emergency situation, and I will make that judgment at that time." So he won't rule it out, apparently accepting the necessity in some circumstances.
Bill Clinton: "We have a system of laws here where nobody should be above the law, and you don’t need blanket advance approval for blanket torture."
All quotes from Andrew McCarthy at National Review: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MGU0NjdkYWUxOGQ0NjI1ODA2NjRhYTlmOWUxODMzZTM=
At 2:29 PM,
egarber said…
Is waterboarding torture? Well again, the Geneva Conventions aren't clear on that at all.
Any group defending the high road (where I think *we* should be) likely considers it to be torture if inflicted on prisoners.
A rule that doesn't state what it is banning is no rule at all. Is forced running "cruel"? Depends who you ask, I suppose.
Again, if you're upholding the spirit of the conventions, an extreme version of this would in all likelihood be considered cruel and inhumane.
As I noted before, Congress could have made waterboarding illegal, and did not. The Dems control Congress, but will not. Apparently they understand the necessity of waterboarding in some cases.
I think this is somewhat of a logical fallacy. The McCain torture bill broadly prohibits torture** and cruelty, so on some level I think we're dealing with the Hamiltonian anti-Bill of Rights argument -- i.e., if we specify one tactic for a ban, we might implicitly be APPROVING others left silent as a matter of law.
**One acknowledged problem with my argument is that the McCain amendment relies on the Army Field manual as the guideline (I think). Problem there is that there are new classified parts we don't know about (I think that's still the case). Still, I don't think the lack of a specific law banning waterboarding implies approval, given my explanation above.
Have the democrats passed a law since 2006 banning say, lighting a prisoner on fire? If not, does that mean the corollary is that they favor the approach in certain circumstances? Seems more likely that the broad ban covers it -- along with waterboarding etc.
At 2:45 PM,
egarber said…
A rule that doesn't state what it is banning is no rule at all.
Well, consider the 8th Amendment:
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Based on your logic, it would seem this isn't a rule at all -- since no specific "unusual punishments" are listed. That can't be right, can it?
At 3:04 PM,
Sobek said…
No, I don't think the Eighth Amendment is much of a rule because no one can agree one what it means. I do believe that it provides for a framework, under which rules can and should be made. Same with the First Amendment: what on earth is "the freedom of speech"? The Constitution doesn't say, so we need rules to come from elsewhere.
The Supreme Court acknowledges this when it strikes down statutes for vagueness, because no one knows how to conform their actions to the rule.
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