Dorf on Law

Mostly law-related musings by Cornell Professor Michael Dorf and some of his lawyer/professor friends

Wednesday, December 27, 2006

More on Ramsey Clark and US Foreign Policy

In his post below, Mike wrote: "[L]iberal internationalists like myself would certainly concede that some U.S. military interventions have been unjustified, unwise and/or illegal under international law." Actually, one can agree with everything Mike says in his post even if one changes the word "some" in the above sentence to "almost all" and notes that some sins of omission (Darfur, Rwanda) are almost certainly worse than some sins of commission (Iraq, Vietnam)--though the ultimate body count in the ongoing disasters could tragically go either way in a contest that no one wants to win.

Again, even if one thinks that US foreign policy has been an unending stream of disasters and missed opportunities, Clark is still wrong and Saddam and Milosevic are still evil. Sadly, Clark makes the argument that Bush and his cheering section ascribe to everyone who disagrees with the war--that we're not happy to see Saddam out of power. Of course, any humane person would be glad to know that Saddam is no longer able to inflict horrors on the Iraqi people. That does not mean, though, that it was acceptable to do what we did to remove him from power, nor does it mean that we can blithely discount the evils that are being visited on the Iraqi people now. "But don't you agree that Saddam was evil?" turns cost-benefit analysis into benefit-only analysis, with anything that is a "good thing" justifying any means of achieving it.

It is always uncomfortable to reduce these questions to a crude utilitarian calculus, but that is what Bush's enablers have implicitly done. If they are to claim that the invasion and continued occupation are "worth it," they are implicitly weighing something against the mounting deaths and dismemberments (of both soldiers and civilians), the dislocations of thousands of families, the cost in dollars, the damage to the rule of law in the US and elsewhere, the US's loss in international standing, and all of the other consequences of this illegal invasion. In order to weigh such things rationally, though, one must be reality-based. Realistic analysts have given up on the flowering of democracy in the Middle East rationale, and the "fighting them over there so they don't come over here" rationale is a conveniently unfalsifiable argument. (If they don't attack in the US, then Bush is right. If they do attack in the US, then Bush is right, too, because it would obviously have been worse if we weren't fighting them over there.)

These are just my views of the consequences of Bush's decisions. In a democracy, we vote to express our views on whether to continue or to change policies. Apparently, that doesn't work, either.

5 Comments:

  • At 9:30 PM, Blogger Sobek said…

    "...and the 'fighting them over there so they don't come over here' rationale is a conveniently unfalsifiable argument."

    Yes, it's unfalsifiable, just as is the counter-argument that "attacking terrorists just creates more of them" argument. In either case, there is simply no way to watch two versions of history to see what woulda happened.

    It's also important to note that, contra a co-worker of mine who is convinced that no radical Muslim anywhere in the world has any intentions of attacking the West, western nations keep foiling bomb plots. Like those crusader war-mongers in France:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2006/12/26/france-on-highest-alert-since-911/

     
  • At 10:41 PM, Blogger Michael C. Dorf said…

    The argument to which Neil alluded is not that attacking TERRORISTS just creates more of them, but that attacking countries that, while nasty, are not hotbeds of terrorism, and turning them into a state of anarchy, will likely breed more terrorists, not to mention divert resources from the work of, say, foiling bomb plots. IMHO, the fact that your co-worker is naive no more undermines Neil's point than does the fact that Ramsey Clark is naive or worse.

     
  • At 11:34 AM, Blogger Sobek said…

    I don't disagree with Neil's point about Clark in the least -- there's a line between zealous advocacy and actually sympathizing with a mass-murderer, and Clark has manifestly crossed it.

    If you are suggesting that Iraq was not a hotbed of terrorism, I'd like to see you flesh that out a little bit. Saddam paid Palestinian terrorists to blow themselves up in Israel, harbored Abu Nidal, etc. Maybe I've misunderstood you, but even if no direct link can be found between Saddam and al-Qaeda, that does not mean there are no direct links to other terrorists.

     
  • At 3:51 PM, Blogger Michael C. Dorf said…

    Oh, I don't doubt that Iraq provided financial support and safe haven to terrorists, but pre-invasion it was not the sort of breeding ground for terrorism that failed states often become. I don't think there's an a priori answer to the question whether state-supported terrorism (think Iran's support for Hezbollah) or spontaneously emerging stateless terrorism (al Qaeda and its ilk) is a greater threat to the rest of the world. But in this particular instance, the threat to the U.S. is almost certainly greater now than it was under UN-sanctioned, UN-inspected Iraq. The best argument I've heard against this position is that inspections and sanctions couldn't last forever, which is true, but they didn't have to, if Saddam or his ultimate successors could have been coaxed to move gradually to a less hostile posture, as in Libya (which is, admittedly, a work in progress).

     
  • At 7:02 PM, Blogger Sobek said…

    "The best argument I've heard against this position is that inspections and sanctions couldn't last forever, which is true, but they didn't have to, if Saddam or his ultimate successors could have been coaxed to move gradually to a less hostile posture, as in Libya (which is, admittedly, a work in progress)."

    1. The inspections didn't actually work. What's the point in prolonging a system that gains you nothing?

    2. The progress in Lybia (such as it is, but hey, I'll take what I can get) only came about when Ghadaffi saw America was serious, because it used military force.

    I'm all for coaxing. I would much rather see peaceful change, as in Lebanon, Lybia, Mauritania, Kyrgyzstan and Ukraine than invasions. But "coaxing," unless we're going to allow military action into that term, is sometimes not enough. Consider the case of Saddam -- what could we possibly have offered him that would have convinced him to abandon (a) the chemical weapons he had stockpiled, (b) bribing French, Russian and UN reps with oil, or (c) his tight-fisted control over a population that would probably have killed him if they got the chance? What could have been offered that was not?

    The same questions can be raised about Kim Jon-Il or Amhadinejad. Iran says it wants nuclear tech for peaceful purposes, but rejects all of Russia's offers to sell it (non-weapons grade) nuclear fuel -- and in spite of the fact that it's sitting on top of one of the world's largest oil reserves. Obviously Iran wants nuclear bombs. What do you think we could offer to get it to change its mind?

     

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